We should not draw any red lines. Dutch Defence Minister Ollongren on cooperation in armament production and F-16s in Ukrainian sky

Kajsa Ollongren became the Minister of Defence of the Netherlands in January 2022. Just a month later she was obliged to work on the issue of the military aid for Ukraine, which resisted against the opponent boasting of more manpower and more weapons. How significant has this aid become?

In the first few days of the full-scale Russian invasion of Ukraine, the Netherlands agreed to supply Ukraine with 200 Stinger MANPADS and 50 Panzerfaust 3 anti-tank grenade launchers. Since then, the total amount of Dutch military aid for Ukraine has reached EUR2.6 billion. And in November 2023, Volodymyr Zelenskyy, President of Ukraine, awarded Ollongren with the Order of the Prince Yaroslav The Wise of the 3rd degree for significant contribution into strengthening intergovernmental cooperation and the support for independence and territorial integrity of Ukraine.

In March, Kajsa Ollongren visited Ukraine for the fifth time: she met with President Zelenskyy, visited several cities and even went to the positions of the Defence Forces of Ukraine in the country's east.

She also was an honorable guest of the award ceremony for female leaders called UP 100. The Power of Women. In a public blitz-interview for Ukrainska Pravda, Ollongren revealed when the F-16 fighter jets might appear in the Ukrainian sky, whether the red lines in the issue of the aid for Ukraine existed, and how women engaging in defence could change the Ukrainian army.

Kajsa Ollongren was an honorable guest of the award ceremony for female leaders called UP 100.

The Power of Women. All photos: Dmytro Larin

"F-16s will fly in the Ukrainian sky as early as this summer"

Back in 2023, the Netherlands announced their readiness to supply Ukraine with the F-16 fighter jets. These fighter jets could have started defending the Ukrainian skies as early as in May but I hope it will happen in July. So my question is, what caused this delay, and could you please tell us some details about the equipment?

Will Ukraine be able to use the aircraft and long-range missiles? You know how important they are for liberating our territories. F-16s are an important capability, it's going to be an important transition for the Ukrainian Air Force.

And we were very happy that after a certain period of pushing and trying to gather the right people to make a right decision, we were able to announce that the Netherlands, together with Denmark, is going to lead the way towards the transition of Ukraine's Air Force to the F-16s. And yes, this is a trajectory where we knew we would encounter difficulties and problems of technical sort, problems of people just having to learn it, pilots, maintenance, technicians. This is not easy.

And once the F-16s will be flying in Ukraine, and I'm quite confident that it will be this summer, this will be something that nobody has ever done before Ukraine, it's never been done this quickly before.

That is a great compliment to the Ukrainian military, to the Ukrainian Air Force, and also to the bravery of the Ukrainian soldiers that are going to use this capability. In itself it does not make the difference, but in combination, if you've got an integrated effort with the F-16s in the air and all other capabilities that you are able to use, then I think it's going to be a very important transition and something that Putin is not going to be very happy about. We have to make sure that you are absolutely ready to use them, and everybody is working very very hard on that, so that there is everything from the infrastructure to the ammunition, and make sure that once they're up there, they're going to be effective.

"And once the F-16s will be flying in Ukraine, and I'm quite confident that it will be this summer" - Kajsa Ollongren said

The F-16s are not the only effort the Netherlands makes to help Ukraine with this war.

The Netherlands has been training our army, and you can see their progress, and actually our allies also learned a lot from the Ukrainian Armed Forces. But at the same time there is still room for improvement, so how can the Ukrainian army meet NATO standards as soon as possible? Well, I think this is also something that has never been done before.

A country that is going to be a member of NATO but is currently fighting a war against the very aggressor the NATO was formed for. NATO was at the time, of course, to protect us from the Soviet Union. And now we see again within NATO that the Russian Federation poses danger to us, an existential danger to Ukraine and also an existential danger to us, NATO members in Europe.

And I think the fact that we have said that Ukraine will be a member of NATO, and Ukraine will be a member of the European Union, and it makes it very very important.

To win this war we must also think about our production of weapons. So my question is, do you have any plans - and partnership with other countries is very important here - so what should Ukraine do to make this partnership successful, and do you have any agreements with our Ministry of Defence to launch this production? Yes, absolutely.

Just three weeks ago, President Zelenskyy signed the security arrangement with Mark Rutte, our Prime Minister. This security arrangement that is going to be valid for 10 years, has a very important paragraph that says we have to cooperate in the defence industry. During my visit here yesterday and today, I was actually accompanied by a Dutch trade delegation, so these are defence industry companies who are here in Kyiv to sign a letter of intent with the Ukrainian defence industry to make sure that we are stronger together.

For instance, [it concerns cooperation] in the field of nuke technology, drones, and the AI, because this has also become the war of technology. There, we think, we can add value to the industrial production in Ukraine which you are scaling up at a really impressive speed, and I think that we are only just starting, and we are looking towards working on that, improving that and doing that at a speed of relevance.

Red lines for Europe

I would also like to talk a little bit about the red lines. So, we are seeing in real time how our war is changing the landscape of European security and political leadership in Europe.

But at the same time our partners see the victory of Ukraine in absolutely different ways, and you can see that, for example, French President Emmanuel Macron has said it's possible that French soldiers will be sent to Ukraine. At the same time, all the Germans are still doubting whether to send or not to send the Taurus [missiles] to Ukraine. So my question is, does the Netherlands have any red lines and, if so, what are they?

Ukraine has many friends, and many of these countries, most of these countries are democracies, like the Netherlands, like Germany, like France. They have different cultures, different politics, different parliaments and different preferences but I think what unites all of us is that we are determined to continue the support for Ukraine. If I had learned one thing, I think it is wise not to draw any red lines.

I think in the beginning there were countries that were like "the F-16s are a red line, we are not going to cross it", and I think we were realistic and we saw, as Ukrainians presumed, that it was wise to start working on the F-16s [delivery]. So I think we should not talk about red lines, we should talk about what Ukraine needs, that Ukraine is fighting the war, we are supporting Ukraine in every possible way, and that is how we approach it.

Ukraine has many friends, and many of these countries, most of these countries are democracies, like the Netherlands, like Germany, like France.

Yes but here it needs a little more clarity - to help Ukraine win this war as soon as possible, or to do so as long as it takes? Yeah, I mean, this war would end today, if Russia simply withdrew and stopped, but it doesn't want the war to stop.

There are no signs of Putin stopping, so you have every right to defend yourself, you need ammunition, you need training, you need weapons, you need reserves, spare parts. And this is our responsibility to provide you with that, so that you can fight this war, withstand the aggression, and as far as I am concerned, restore the borders of Ukraine that are internationally recognized, and it is up to you, and we are simply here to make sure you can keep fighting.

The role of a woman in the Ukrainian army

We are meeting with you at the event organised by Ukrainska Pravda dedicated to women's leadership. In the Ukrainian army, we now have more than 63,000 women.

How can women's leadership change the army? First of all, these are impressive numbers, and I've also spoken to the women in your military, and these are also impressive women. Many of them will step forward voluntarily because they want to support Ukraine.

[...] I mean, I think we all know you need diversity in any team, be it in the armed forces, or be it in the private sector, it makes us stronger. [...] I say this in the Netherlands, and the same goes for Ukraine and other countries: we cannot afford to leave 50% of the population aside. So we need everybody to make our armed forces stronger, and we need women! We need to recognize that in some fields, women have certain skills and opportunities that men don't have, as the other way around, sometimes men have what we women cannot provide.

But to use both those talents and both capabilities is vital to our armed forces in the Netherlands and also in Ukraine, and I think that numbers are impressive, the women are impressive, the women's different ranks are impressive, and sometimes, you know, I've also learned the hard way that things sometimes don't just happen. You have to do something about it, and you have to invite women to become fighter jet pilots, to become helicopter pilots, to be involved in special forces. You have to make an effort.

So, my last question, because you're the Minister of Defence of a European country, and it's still a little bit unique in European countries and NATO countries.

So, what do you think people of Ukraine, including politicians and activists, need to do to make sure that one day the Defence Ministry of Ukraine, a European country, is headed by a woman? Well, in my country I'm not even the first female defence minister, I would love to be but I'm not. There was one already, which is good.

My country is waiting for the first female Prime Minister, for instance, so even in a country as liberal and emancipated I think the Netherlands is, we still have a way to go. And I think it's also just addressing women with ambition, it is also about stepping in, saying yes. Don't hesitate, think like a man from time to time and say yes!

Sevhil Musaieva, Ukrainska Pravda

Editing: Ivan Zhezhera